INDIAN MUSIC FORUM ARCHIVES: Sitar Forum: Who can you trust?

<<<Hi, First of all, on Hiren Roy, when he passed away in 1992 his son Hemanshu took over, he also was quite well but he passed away in 1999 I think, correct me if I am wrong. Right now Barun Roy is in charge of all operations over there, and he is looking for quantity over quality, so expect poor quality materials. The Radha Krishna Sharma story is the same and Rikhi Ram is poor quality because now that Ravi
Shankar endorses their instruments, they feel they have some sort of right to get away with selling crap. The truth is, there are many fine makers out there who work for shop owners, for instance a friend
of mine Shahid Ali is probably the best sitar maker in Miraj, and also made my rudra veena for me. If you are interested in his
instruments let me know, I think people should learn about the quality of his instruments as they are outstanding. Another good place if they are still open is Mohan & Company in Calcutta, however I have not seen any of their instruments recently and fear that they may have closed. Manoj Kumar Sardar does good work if you ask him personally, but I would steer clear of Mangala Prasad Sharmas instruments, unless you know it was actually made by him and not his workers.

At one time, HR&Sons made the best "off the shelf" sitar out there, but the title of "the best" is wide-open right now. There are many competitors that make very good sitars, but nobody seems to be clearly above the rest. Reputations are established by word of mouth, and Mangla, HR, and Rikkhi Ram are all good examples of this. They all have made crappy sitars now and then, but they have the ability to make a "dream" sitar as a custom job per your specs. All you need is cash (wasn't that a song or something??).

As for MPS, Mangla himself made his sitars for the first two years of U.S. marketing and imports. Sitars made during that time were very good in quality. But it is possible this is no longer the case. One Indian can only work so fast before quality fall victim!

So, one day, there will be a new "best" sitar maker, but these things take time. Keep an eye on the professionals and what they play. Those people tend to make or break a maker.

Maybe this guy on the Yahooooo! forum just got a lemmon, But! Buckingham shouldnt have let it slip through. Now did this guy get his MPS from Peter C. himself or after his passing?

I think my MPS is top notch but I'm sure there is something nicer out there, so I'm condemned to search for what in my mind is the perfect sitar. I went thru this same nonsense with electric guitars years ago and then with acoustic guitars.

Who can you trust? I guess you cant really trust anyone a hundred percent.

Peace,

Remco

Remco, good advice to get your teacher to check out a potential sitar first. There are junk sitars out there, some with famous names. The only real difference is the famous names don't make lemons, but they all sell seconds and even thirds. They will tell you up front that these sitars are not their best, and they sell for less.

I don't know Jeff. There has to be some level of trust out there, or this is a crap shoot in the dark! All I can say is a good dealer will have a good return policy if you don't like the sitar. Stay away from one who does not!

Over the last few weeks I've built a level of trust with Lars, based primarily on his helpfulness, and he has likely won my business for this help. Perhaps there are other dealers out there that may deliver the same service; I know Buckingham used to, but indications are they may be imploding (too bad, since they are only a couple of hours drive from me.)

Obviously, a good sitar is a serious investment to a lot of us; even a "student" sitar can be quite an investment to some of us. But I think it is well worthwhile to pay that little extra, because in the long run, you likely will have saved a lot of worry and pain.

On a side note, I am planning on buying a sitar in the next few months, probably in the $600-800 range. This will probably be the most I can afford (and even that's up in the air), and I doubt I will be able to buy another sitar, at least not for a few years. I'm still not sure if I will be able to play seriously enough at this point, but I do want to get a better one than the one I've been working on, to give it a serious try. So I really don't know what to start looking for. I see a lot of people talking about a lot of sitars, many of them out of reach for me. Serious suggestions would be appreciated.

By the way, on Ravi Shankar's Full Circle album, he introduces one of his tambura players as Ajay Sharma, and said he made the sitar Ravi was playing at the time. Is the same maker?

Regarding the general topic, this forum seems to have a tendency towards Sitar Etc. I believe that they are still not the top quality Sitars. They are great for the average Joe like us learning to play the Sitar.

The top brands Hiren, Hemen, RR, Manoj etc are still the top makers. Most of their good Sitars are already picked up by their local connections ie local teachers/musicians etc. The left over quantity is shipped to the US to be sold in stores here.

The only store AACM carried these top brands on a consistent basis, but you still have be lucky enough to get a good build sitar from a top maker.

There are many people whose names come up as "Sitar consultants" and they give the impression that they have some connection with Sitar makers and it seems like a good idea to go throught them. Even then it is hard to trust them unless you have had a personal recommendation from a friend you trust. You cannot go by internet bulletin board recommendations as some folks may already have some connection to that particular store/broker etc. . .

Unfortunately there is no standard rating for a Sitar and therefore it is word of mouth, who you know and if you can trust some body to select a Sitar for you.

A beginner Sitar player is is no position to judge the quality of a professional Sitar so many times does not know the difference.

Can a beginner tell the difference between a crappy sitar and a decent one? Yes, easily. Can a beginner tell the difference between an average sitar and a top model? Usually not, and that's why I recommend a beginner not start off with a "top" model.

Billy, the top tumba is mainly for looks anyway with most sitars. Only in some do you actually hear a sonic difference, and that difference is not real obvious. But the top tumba weighs less than one pound, so it doesn't add that much weight to the instrument.

Peace,

Remco

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DM (Jul 28, 2003 03:28 p.m.):

Regarding the general topic, this forum seems to have a tendency towards Sitar Etc. I believe that they are still not the top quality Sitars. They are great for the average Joe like us learning to play the Sitar.

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Hi DM, have you had a chance to play a Srishti? And if so, what faults if any have you found in them? I am curious as to why you think they are just "average" sitars. Is it the tonality? Workmanship? Playability? etc,,,.

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DM (Jul 28, 2003 03:28 p.m.):
Regarding the general topic, this forum seems to have a tendency towards Sitar Etc. I believe that they are still not the top quality Sitars. They are great for the average Joe like us learning to play the Sitar.

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Well, that's part of the point, I am an "average Joe" just wanting to learn to play. Can I buy a quality sitar of one of the brands you mention in my price range?

Anyway, that's the whole point of me asking; I want to get varied opinions. I like Lars and he has been helpful, but if I find a better sitar elsewhere, with the same kind of customer I know I get from Lars, then yeah, I may go elsewhere. I will not buy a sitar elsewhere just because its cheaper, or even, if its the same price but a different brand that may be "better". If I don't have good customer service, and a return policy of some type, I'll pass. We all have priorities. I am far from rich; heck, if I had the money I'd buy a $2500 sitar or two, but no, I don't. In fact, I'm in the process of selling some items I hold precious to come up with enough to buy a decent sitar, and I'm still not sure I'll be able to. BUT, I have no qualms spending a little more to get what I want, if it comes backed by that great customer service. Others may pay less for a sitar elsewhere, but they may have the experience to deal with any problems they find.

Anyway, please keep the suggestions coming, but please, I don't want to know just the names of sitar makers, but I want to know where I can buy them so I can check out their return policies and service.

Many thanks!

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DM (Jul 28, 2003 03:28 p.m.):
The person Ajay Sharma is the son of Rikhi Ram and Sitar maker. "

Correction, Ajay Sharma is the grandson of Rikhi Ram as is his brother Sanjay.

"Regarding the general topic, this forum seems to have a tendency towards Sitar Etc. I believe that they are still not the top quality Sitars. They are great for the average Joe like us learning to play the Sitar"

To echo Jeff here, have you played one? I don't recall selling one to a DM. Could this be the subjective opinion of a 'sitar consultant' as defined below? :-) Sitars Etc. is a newcomer and so gets a lot of attention and I'm grateful for all the support but part of the reason is that I am friends with a lot of them but most do not own one of my instruments. .

"The top brands Hiren, Hemen, RR, Manoj etc are still the top makers. Most of their good Sitars are already picked up by their local connections ie local teachers/musicians etc. The left over quantity is shipped to the US to be sold in stores here."

Manoj Kumar Sardar a top maker? You are the first person I've ever heard say that. . .Hiren Roy, Hemen, and RR have had their day and most musicians still play them EXCEPT that they are usually 20+ years old. An artist in India that wants to buy a new sitar almost always has it made for him and then waits until the sound matures before playing it in concerts.

"The only store AACM carried these top brands on a consistent basis, but you still have be lucky enough to get a good build sitar from a top maker."

I bought several sitars about 20 years ago from AACM, they used to be the only place to go then. . .

"There are many people whose names come up as "Sitar consultants" and they give the impression that they have some connection with Sitar makers and it seems like a good idea to go throught them. Even then it is hard to trust them unless you have had a personal recommendation from a friend you trust. You cannot go by internet bulletin board recommendations as some folks may already have some connection to that particular store/broker etc. . ."

So very true, you have to trust the person you're buying from and do your homework. . . but with the advent of the internet it is now possible to get a much better instrument with diligent research!

"Unfortunately there is no standard rating for a Sitar and therefore it is word of mouth, who you know and if you can trust some body to select a Sitar for you. "

True again, and equally as good as having a good 'sitar consultant' (I like this term) pick a decent sitar for you is having one actually MADE (ala Srishti) for you instead of selecting one from a batch that has been hanging in a shop and then stuck in an ocean container for several months at 140 degrees and 99% humidity. (Try this at home folks, put your sitar or tablas in an oven at 140 degrees with about a gallon of water in a bowl and seal up all vents/openings. Bake without checking for 8 weeks, take out and enjoy!)

"A beginner Sitar player is is no position to judge the quality of a professional Sitar so many times does not know the difference.

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Well, here is where I would respectfully disagree. Most would-be Sitar players are musicians already, often guitar players. That being said, they're sure to notice the difference between a top of the line Martin or Gibson versus a Walmart guitar. . .there's my 2 rupees worth!

Lars Jacobsen
Sitar Consultant
http://sitarsetc.com
info@sitarsetc.com

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Billy, the top tumba is mainly for looks anyway with most sitars. Only in some do you actually hear a sonic difference, and that difference is not real obvious. But the top tumba weighs less than one pound, so it doesn't add that much weight to the instrument.

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Well, I do hear a bit of difference with the top toomba on, but not much really. Still, if you think about it, though the top toomba weighs a pound, that weight is multiplied by the length of the sitar and the angle you are holding it; this extra weight would add to the strain in your right hand holding up the sitar.

Its too many years since I took engineering physics and statics, so I won't even try to come up with a specific answer, just trust me that the actual strain is more than a pound.

And if your not honest and upstanding, word of mouth will get around quickly. Look at Mid East Mfg for example, would anyone but
a total novice purchase from them?

I think Lars here is trying to start up a good honest company, after all he worked on his web site for many months and even before that, has been very helpful to all of us with his knowledgeable answers to our questions

I would still like to hear your personal appraisals of Srishti,. DM. And why you think they are of average quality? Just because a maker is new on the market (Is Srishti new on the sitar market?) does'nt mean they're putting out sub- standard instruments. You gotta start somewhere.

And,,, If Lars does screw anybody on ths "forum" I think it will be posted right away,,. And for the couple of months he's been in buisness I havent seen a bad word about him or his retail product anywhere. And I'm on the NET almost every day looking at sitar sites, sales and etc,,,.

Yes, I have flamed two companies on here before. For the first company, the sitars they sell sound flat, and tend to fall apart with routine playing. Plus, the company is a major importer for a lot of retail outlets throughout the U.S., so these things are everywhere, especially on Ebay. That company is mentioned in this tread. There has been one person who disagreed on my opinion of the company rather strongly though.

The second company has a famous name. Unless you establish yourself as seasoned player to the manager,they will sell you "something" off their shelf at great expense. I have had personal problems with their customer service in returning instruments that were defective and did not meet the specs I gave. That company is also mentioned in this thread. However, I'm sure their top of the line instruments are exactly that, in both quality and price.

I think another purpose this forum can serve is to educate all on what to look and listen for to identify a quality instrument. After all, you can dress a pig up in pearls, but its still a pig (sorry, Miss Piggy. .). I would like to see more veteran sitar owners and players to jump in here and give their 2 or 3 rupees worth on that! As I mentioned before, word of mouth can make or break a sitar-maker, and we would all like to have affordable, quality sitars.

OK. . .I'm off my soapbox now.

Yes, we should not flame without cause. Yes, we can and should be civil, good "netizens". But we should also be open and honest with our opinions of sitar manuafactures, models, and retailers, backed with any empirical data we might have.

Sure, a lot of it will be merely opinion, a lot could be based on a single incident or anomaly, but this could be resolved if more people spoke up with their own opinions. If one person posts that ABC, inc is a bad dealer, I would give little credence to such a statement.

If that person states ABC is a bad dealer because of x, y, and z, I would pay attention a bit more. But if two or more people say the same thing about ABC, then I will certainly sit up and take notice.

So please, lets be civil, but lets be open and helpful.Us beginners really need it!

So, I think it would speak volumes if Lars hasn't been flamed in this forum for sitar quality/ service, up to this point. (not sure how many he has sold to us though, but damn, I'll buy my next one from him too :-)

Pb

Stephen, yes that pressure on a maker can compromise quality. I think that has already happened with some of the older makers talked about on here. However, on the flip side of the same coin, knowledge of a big demand can provide the incentive to a fledgling new maker to get with it(eg, Shristi, Mangla, etc)and help supply the demand for a quality instrument at affordable prices. So, its a little good, a little not so good.

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Stephen (Jul 29, 2003 03:41 p.m.):
I just wonder what happens when we build up a certain make of instrument, if that maker becomes so pressed to fill orders that the quality goes down. Remember the old saying, "speed, quantity and quality. .pick any two".

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The immediacy of the Internet has helped in many ways to avoid such problems (though admitedly, it has caused many problems also.) We should use the Internet as the tool it is, but we should also understand that advice should be taken with a grain of salt.

I'm thinking that this is posted out of ignorance, but it does bring the trust issue into play again. I believe I still trust Lars at Sitars, Etc., but it is scarey nonetheless.

Due to the nature of the market, the quality of sitars imported to the states will run the full spectrum from crap to one-of-a-kind. That's why supplier trust and a little bit of consumer technical knowledge is what can make the difference.