INDIAN MUSIC FORUM ARCHIVES: Sitar Forum: Mizrab Ouch!

I have a neurological problem that amplifies pain---real brilliant trying to learn to play a steel stringed instrument. Anyway, I bought my sitar as a second a couple of weeks ago, have done as much tweaking as possible, and it sounds pretty good. I've started practicing scales, and don't really have much problem with fretting strings with my left hand, its that darn mizrab that's giving me problems! I've tried different sizes, with and without the plastic on the wire, tried bending the sides so its not so tight, but nothing decreases the pain for me. I would hate to not learn the sitar just because I can't stand the pain on my finger!!

Any ideas? I thought about trying to make one that attaches to the finger with a velcro strip or something similar, but obviously it needs to be tight, and able to pluck in both directions. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

By the way, I've already learned quite a lot from this forum. Its really great!

Well, you did pick a tough instrument if you're not into pain! Mizrabs (you can spell it any way you like since its not an english word anyway) by nature will hurt for a while till you get used to it. The plastic wrap at the top is more comfortable, but the mizrab has a tendency to "wiggle" when using it. And that's no good. .
But I have seen some people use the western-style guitar and banjo metal finger and thumb instead of these wire contraptions. They're nonconventional of course, but they do work. Might try a set of those. . .

God Bless,
Rohit

I have seen some tablayas use bandaids on the ends of their fingers. Don't know if that's for sound control or painfull fingers. Or both!

Try to get a couple of plasticcovered mizrabs and use them for a time. . .

Peace,

Remco

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remco (Jun 23, 2003 04:48 p.m.):
Try to get a couple of plasticcovered mizrabs and use them for a time. . .

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Well, like I said, I've tried both the type with the plastic and the type without plastic, and there's not much dfference between one and the other for me.

I think I will try wearing one around when not playing; I can see where this might work for me, since I don't stress the pick any while just wearing it. Of course, as a software developer, I type most of the day, it probably won't work too good while typing!! Of course with my typing, there probably won't be a lot of difference.

I'm not sure if a banjo finger pick would work too well, as I believe they can only pluck in one direction. I used to play at steel guitar when I was a kid, and wore banjo-style picks. You can see what they look like at: http://www.catamuse.com/fingerpicks.html

Yeah, if you can wear the mizrab around during the daytime, it can help you get used to it. But your finger will naturally swell during the day with body fluids, and it may get really uncomfortable. And it is a bit hard to type wearing that thing.

Peace,

Remco

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Stephen (Jun 26, 2003 09:50 a.m.):
No pain, no gain. Adjusting to wear of mizrab is just one of the things you have to get use to.
. .
Yes, you have to be a caloused individual to play indian string instruments. And if you think you have it bad, check out what a sarangi player goes through.

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Well, I'm certainly not trying to wimp out or anything, and as I said in my original message, I understand the mizrab hurts but one will grow calluses. But I also said that I'd hate to not learn to play the sitar just because of the pain. I am only looking for a solution that is less painful, one that perhaps will take longer to grow the protective calluses, and be a little accomodating to my little problem.

I definitely understand tradition, and will do what I can to follow the traditions of playing sitar within my needs. I also understand that playing the a sitar that is correctly tweaked, with the appropriate tools, in the tranditional manner, will produce the sound we should seek to produce. As an absolute beginner, I want to strive for that, but even if my first weeks playing with some sort of substitute does not give me the perfect sound, wouldn't it be better than not playing at all??

I remember several years ago, my wife gave me a surprise gift of a djembe drum. This is a drum from West Aftrica that is traditionally played while holding it between the knees. Even when standing, using a strap around the drum, it is still held between the knees. I could not handle that, so modified a strap so I could hold it to my side while standing. It worked out fairly well for me.

Well, about that time someone told me of a local drum circle that was bigger than the one I sometimes participated in, and I emailed the leader for info. In our correspondence, I mentioned the strap and holding it to the side. Well he let me have it, how either I play it traditionally or not at all. That so turned me off that not only did I not go to their drum circle, I gave the drum to one of my kids.

I was a weaker person then. If someone hammers me for not deigning to learn the sitar properly, its not going to stop my desire to learn. As I said, I understand the need for tradition, especially to get the sound we seek, but if I need to temporarily "bend" the rules a little, so be it.

I've ordered some mizrabs of a thinner wire than the one's I have now, maybe that will help. Meanwhile, I'll continue to seek a solution that will more immediately put me on the path of learning this fine instrument.

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Russ (Jun 28, 2003 06:58 p.m.):
Billy, do whatever works for you. People here only give opinions. It is quite alright to make accomodations as necessary. Making the music is the goal. All else is secondary.

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Thanks. I guess I'm just a little sensitive lately. I actually prefer people to post their personal feelings; it is from these that we learn. I don't believe anyone is picking on me or anything like that, I'm just a bit frustrated. Hopefully some larger mizrabs will help out. I'll do whatever it takes though.

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Stephen (Jun 30, 2003 07:55 a.m.):
Don't get me wrong about this stuff, I'm just saying that the direct approach might get you to mostly pain free playing more rapidly. I almost think that trying mizrab that is made with thinner gauge wire is moving in the opposite direction from where you want to go.

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Gotcha, I understand. I'll try both thicker and thinner picks, to see what's the best. I've gotten a lot of good advice, and will experiment to see what works best for me. Thanks for the help.

Stephen's right. . . .a thinner mizrab IS moving in the opposite direction. . . . .I got some thicker ones, they not only seem to sound better to me, but they don't cut into my finger so sharply, are much more comfortable. . . . .like everyone says, whatever works, though. . . . .

Don't listen to that drum bozo
Do whatever you need to in order to play
I wonder what that guy would say to someone without any legs?

Hang in there and keep playing!

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Annette (Jun 30, 2003 04:32 p.m.):
Billy

Stephen's right. . . .a thinner mizrab IS moving in the opposite direction. . . . .I got some thicker ones, they not only seem to sound better to me, but they don't cut into my finger so sharply, are much more comfortable. . . . .like everyone says, whatever works, though. . . . .

Don't listen to that drum bozo
Do whatever you need to in order to play
I wonder what that guy would say to someone without any legs?

Hang in there and keep playing!

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It seems that's the growing consensus. I guess I thought that the thinner wire would be more malleable. I'll be trying thinker ones also.

As for the drum guy, I can imagine him saying something like "if God wanted you to play the djembe, he'd make sure you had legs."

Actually, its been a few years, I don't know the guy, he may have a completely different attitude now, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. But for me, if I have to bend tradition a little bit, in whatever I do, I will. That's my new attitude.

My problem now is, I don't mind wearing it much, but man, it hurts to take it off! Patience, patience grasshopper. . .

Lars

My mizrabs are really tight. I have to press the indexfinger quite hard against the floor or any hard surface to get the mixrab to slide on to the finger tip. When on it feels like an extension of my finger. I dont feel much pain, but the smallest adjustment on the mizrab can make it uncomfortable to ware. its made out of quite thick wire.

jan

Stephen's advice is very sound. It is the size, thickness of string, metal quality, and position that contribute to the comfort level. .and your performance/timbre. It is good you understand the reason for the pain. All you can do is get used to it in time. But if there is pain for a long time something is wrong.

By the way it may help in responses to indicate the general area where you are from. Folks may be able to point you to close by human/professional resources.

As to tradition vs innovation. I have no problems with tradition as long as it has a benefit associated with it. Indians (and other societies) have a very bad attitude that all tradition is holy. Unfortunately many outsiders (from the culture) have been trapped by these beliefs as well, without understanding the cause. But that is a civil and natural behahaviour.

There is no such thing as tradition without innovation i.e. change. However, one very important factor needs to be kept in mind. There are reasons why good teachers (who just do not blindly follow tradition) insist on proper techniques (holding, striking, fingering, etc). They become a critical factor if you eventually plan to become a master (or closer to one) on the instrument. Many wrong techniques/holding positions etc. may seem to be fine when playing slow or only certain types of exercises/melodies. However, speed up or advance in technique, and these will hinder you terribly in one's growth.

Foundations are critical. But there is an interesting side-line to this. As you know, Nikhil Bannerjee used a small second bridge on the jawari strings at the top. It supposedly gives a better timbre/sustain in open mode. This broke away from tradition. Just last week, I was querying Indrajit Bannerjee (with whom Lars, Russ, and I learn from) as to whether there was a benefit to this. He indicated that he had tried both and during meed/meend (pulling), a different technique (slightly) has to be adopted to play the correct pitch on the duo-bridged instrument. It is not that the innovation is better of worse in this case. Just that innovation in one area. .may need to be complemented by other changes.

In my opinion the sitar has a long way to grow in the manufacturing - and possibly even design. This could impact playing techniques considerably.

So the reasonable approach seems to be to stick to the mizrab advice given by Stephen - like you were planning to do, But don't give up on your rebellious/innovative side. See if there are better ways. . .not just now. .but later in the journey - as you discover the reasons.

Another possible tip that may help. I do not know whether you saw the photos from Dr. Slawek's performance. But in one, you will notice that he put Henna around joints. People claim that Henna toughens the skin. It has not worked for me. .but I have not explored that advice a great deal yet.

All the best.

Thanks for the advice. By the way, I'm from Fort Worth, Texas, which is also posted in my profile. There's a pretty large South Asian community in the area, and we even have a fulltime South-Asian oriented radio station (though they don't play much ICM.) We also have a classical music appreciation association. So there are resources. I just haven't hooked up with any yet, and until I finish this going in and out of the hospital I've been doing, I don't want to make any committments yet; I'm content with just going through scales for now.

If you do know any instructors in the area, let me know. Lars mentioned that there is one here, as well as someone doing crash-courses in College Station, just a few hours away from here.

I'm real impressed with what I've learned so far on this forum. You guys are great (I say guys not meaning just the men, but women also. I was in the Army ten years, and picked up that habit there.)

Ok. .some simple resources. .I maintain a listing of classical events in TX. So, to keep in touch with concerts. .visit http://www.icmca.org/calendar.html. The main North ICM in Dallas is ICMC DFW at http://www.icmcdfw.org/.

In Dallas there is sitar instruction available. The primary teacher is more influenced by the Imdadkhani style. Contact the phone numbers in the ICMC page and they should be able to help.

Indrajit is in College Station, TX for the summer (until August I think), but will be out off/on for concerts. He is currently in Carrib - then Nashville, scheduled to be back in two weeks or so. Don't know his schedule after that. I recommend taking a pilgrimage to Aggieland.

A

Indrajit says he will be here to mid-September. I'm planning on making the trip out to Aggieland for lessons some time after Labor Day when the heat lessens a bit and my work schedule allows. I have classes to teach myself.

Amitava runs a good website with lots of local info. There are actually a number of teachers within a couple of hours of you.
Check out http://www.icmca.org/calendar.html

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Russ (Jul 08, 2003 12:57 p.m.):
What's that icon you're talking about? There's still parts of this board I don't know about. .

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Russ, if there's a little head profile icon underneith the person's name to the left of their posted message, clicking it will take you to their "profile", where they might post stuff like where they're located.

If you want to create or add to your profile, click "profile" on the menu at the top.

I run, or have run, many different forums over the years. Though I've never used the particular software this forum uses, there are a lot of similarities with other forum software. So its not to hard to pick up after a while. I do admit I don't know all the ins and outs about this software yet, but I'll help when I can.

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Russ (Jul 08, 2003 12:49 p.m.):
Billy;
Bought my very first sitar, a no name, in Ft. Worth at a Pier 1 store, way back in summer 1970.

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I know the old location you mention very well. In fact, I know the original Pier One location, just around the corner from the one you're talking about, on University Drive, in what used to be a Radio Shack/ American Handicrafts/ Bowling Alley and now houses "Ol' South Pancake House". The first regular "flea market" in Fort Worth was run there, and as a kid I used to sell stuff. Later, I found that you could dig around in the dumpster behind Pier One and find all kinds of cools seconds that they would just throw away; I would fix up the stuff and sell it at the next flea market!!!! Pretty resourceful for an 11 year old. In fact, one of the tv stations even did a news story about me once.

In 1970 I was still in High School. We used to go to Pier One to get all of our "hippie" regalia. It was one of the best places in the city for that stuff. Since it was right on the edge of Trinity Park, the primary hangout in the city, they got a lot of business from a lot of the freaks.

I do remember them having sitars occasionally; in fact, that might have been the first place I ever saw a sitar close up.

These days, they are over commercialized, just a home decor store. How things have changed.

I've been to both the Austin and DFW ICM sites, though its been a while. Guess I should check them out again.