INDIAN MUSIC FORUM ARCHIVES: Sitar Forum: raga

 

Author Message
L. Chatterjee
raga Nov 26, 2002 08:49 p.m.


Raga Abhogi
Raga Adana
Raga Ahir Bhairav
Raga Alhaiya Bilawal
Raga Asavari
Raga Bageshwari
Raga Bahar
Raga Bairagi
Raga Basant
Raga Basant Mukhari
Raga Bhairav
Raga Bhairavi
Raga Bhatiyar
Raga Bhupali
Raga Bhimpalasi
Raga Bihag
Raga Bilaskhani Todi
Raga Charukeshi
Raga Chayanat
Raga Darbari
Raga Darbari Kanada
Raga Desh
Raga Deshkar
Raga Desi
Raga Dhani
Raga Durga
Raga Gara
Raga Gaud Malhar
Raga Gaud Sarang
Raga Gorakh Kalyan
Raga Hameer
Raga Hamsdhwani
Raga Hemant
Raga Jaijaiwanti
Raga Jaunpuri Raga Jhinjhoti
Raga Jogiya
Raga Kafi
Raga Kalavati
Raga Kamod
Raga Kaunsi Kanada
Raga Kedar
Raga Khamaj
Raga Kirwani
Raga Lalit
Raga Madhmad Sarang
Raga Madhuvanti
Raga Malgunji
Raga Malkauns
Raga Manjhkhamaj
Raga Marwa
Raga Maru Bihag
Raga Megh
Raga Megh Malhar
Raga Miyan Ki Malhar
Raga Pahadi
Raga Patdeep
Raga Pilu
Raga Puriya
Raga Puriya Dhanashree
Raga Rageshree
Raga Shankara
Raga Shivranjani
Raga Shree
Raga Shuddha Kalyan
Raga Shuddha Sarang
Raga Sindh Bhairavi
Raga Sohni
Raga Surdasi Malhar
Raga Todi
Raga Vrindavani Sarang
Raga Yaman
Raga
Re:raga Nov 27, 2002 02:54 p.m.


I have been practising listening to
Raga Jaijaiwanti for many years now.
What is your relationship to it, what do you intend to offer?
l chatterjee
Re:raga Nov 27, 2002 08:45 p.m.


I like deeply raga jaijaiwanti. It is rare raga indeed. i offer to.



Raga (Nov 27, 2002 02:54 p.m.):
I have been practising listening to
Raga Jaijaiwanti for many years now.
What is your relationship to it, what do you intend to offer?
Raga
Re:raga Nov 28, 2002 10:48 a.m.


Thank you sincierely for your reply.

I play Jatis acc. to Bharatas Natya Shastra, so my interest is in how Jaijaivanti can be developed from one of the Jatis.

Regards

lchatterjee
Re:raga Nov 28, 2002 08:50 p.m.


yes.yes. this may reference you help-

http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cache:mRYEvlfF5mIC:www.consciousart.de/galleries/performance/Classical%20Indian%20Temple%20Dance.pdf+Bharatas+Natya+Shastra,&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Raga
Re:raga Nov 29, 2002 11:41 a.m.


I read p. 16:
�My point is that the songs must be vocally rendered by the danseuse herself while she
dances.� Therefor a perfect Raga performance should be like this, but I do not know anyone except maybe great Mira Bai who mastered this perfection ages ago ?

I mean Sangita Ratna Kara of Saranga Deva vol. 1 chapt. 1, VII, 61, p. 129 ff. about Ragas: �Elements of derived Ragas are seen in the original Jatis, by those who know it. �. Just as Rig, Yajus and Saman (Veda) cannot be altered, similarly the Jatis that have arisen from the Saman, and are similar to the Veda, shall not be altered.� Therefor to me: Who knows it ?
I can arrange email you a manuscript if you leave your email address.

Amitava
Re:raga Nov 29, 2002 04:02 p.m.


Balasaraswati's style - well documented - and witnessed by the living, did include singing and dancing. Note that not every type of performance probably was presented in this manner - only those that were more abhinay oriented, such as padams and javalis. Mira Bai's realm is in myths and legends. And even if she did dance and sing (which has a ring of truth), the dance form is unlikely to have been a classical performance - more an estatic one.
Raga
Re:raga Dec 01, 2002 11:15 a.m.


I recall that Mira Bai is said to have disappeared in ecstasy when she was singing and dancing. I read all her music was only for her Husband-God Krishna. Since she was a princess I doubt she would have used Desi music, what alternative could have been to Bharat Natyam, what other scripture than Natya Shastra could she have learnt from if she acted a gopika performing raslila?
Amitava
Re:raga Dec 03, 2002 09:51 p.m.


Dear Raga,

You mention the phrase "said to have" in your post - and that hints at what I mentioned earlier regarding "myths and legend". This phenomenon of partial truth, colored by oral exaggerations, flowing through generations, is quite common in Indian culture in religion/spirituality, music, history, and various other aspects of the society.

As a child I was told, and read the stories as you described about Mirabai. But as an adult other theories, facts, and common sense/logic changed the impression. There are also songs attributed to her, that are probably not composed by her. However, the beauty of the material is not tarnished by what she was - or how she lived.

Personally I am much more of fan of Kabir, but Mira's poetry has a different connection that I appreciate.

On the points of (a) "all her music was only for her Husband-God Krishna." Yes all the songs/poetry I have heard or Mira, are centered around Krishna.

(b) "she was a princess I doubt she would have used Desi music". The cultural sophistication of an Indian princess can vary a great deal. You may wish to research the area, time, physical domain, culture, and father's sophistication to determine what your impressions a princess Mira was, vs. what she could have been (closer to reality). Not all princesses were knowledgeable or practioners of the "classical arts". Classical art by the way has changed a great deal since Mira's time - and also was highly regionalized. Also regional/folk (I assume "desi") music/dance is as essential and important (usually more) in the socio-cultural context. In fact, classical arts were, and still remain the domain for few (relative to the population size) not just in India, but in almost all societies. Mira's poetry and melodies - at least as sung today, is considered folk/religious music - even if sung in a stylized manner by classical musicians. That too is hinting at the source of the musical style. Mira's connection was with the common folk - so what music would they be more likely to connect with?

© "what alternative could have been to Bharat Natyam, what other scripture than Natya Shastra could she have learnt from if she acted a gopika performing raslila". Hmmm. You may want to visit the history of Bharat Natyam - and its formative period in Tanjavore...and its evolution since then. Where do you think Natyashastra (which deals more with theater and dance than music) came from? Practices were condensed and refined in the text. It did not pop up suddenly one fine day. Modern BharatNatyam actually changed and redefined itself using the NS.

As for the gopika-raaslila connection with Natyashastra evades me. I am not aware of this relationship. I understood that raaslila was, and still is performed by common folk (i.e. non-classical artists). Raaslila is not a part of the repertoire of any modern classical dance form to my knowledge.

The goal here is not to start a debate - but to point out that Indians (esp. previous generations) are very much under the spell of "tradition" and do not use common sense at times to see things as they probably were. Historical documentation is not as detailed and accurate at times. Pride (false or otherwise), Prejudices, not acknowledging the concept of change, and lack of using logic, causes myths/inaccuracies to perpetuate. Unfortunately some of it is passed on to folks outside the continent. This is a general problem in Indian Classical Music/Dance, where documentation is far less than it should be. Since the turn of the 1900, South Indians seem to have taken a more scientific approach to researching the past than North Indians. Hopefully the attitude will spread. Western ethnomusicologists have added as great deal to the research in the Northern side.

Sincerely
Amitava

Dan
Re:raga Dec 04, 2002 01:09 a.m.


Hmmm! Very interesting list of ragas . How about building up a database of them ? With everyone's inputs, we could add some info in a form of colomns like :

Raga's NAME, TIME of day/night it is ment for, MOOD, SCALE (ascending/decending), LINKS of recordings (record, tape, CD, Mp3), etc.

{wondering if Chandra & David would be welling to host, build such a database page and update it as the info comes in, smile ?}

Dan


L. Chatterjee (Nov 26, 2002 08:49 p.m.):
Raga Abhogi
Raga Adana
Raga Ahir Bhairav
Raga Alhaiya Bilawal
Raga Asavari
Raga Bageshwari
Raga Bahar
Raga Bairagi
Raga Basant
Raga Basant Mukhari
Raga Bhairav
Raga Bhairavi
Raga Bhatiyar
Raga Bhupali
Raga Bhimpalasi
Raga Bihag
Raga Bilaskhani Todi
Raga Charukeshi
Raga Chayanat
Raga Darbari
Raga Darbari Kanada
Raga Desh
Raga Deshkar
Raga Desi
Raga Dhani
Raga Durga
Raga Gara
Raga Gaud Malhar
Raga Gaud Sarang
Raga Gorakh Kalyan
Raga Hameer
Raga Hamsdhwani
Raga Hemant
Raga Jaijaiwanti
Raga Jaunpuri Raga Jhinjhoti
Raga Jogiya
Raga Kafi
Raga Kalavati
Raga Kamod
Raga Kaunsi Kanada
Raga Kedar
Raga Khamaj
Raga Kirwani
Raga Lalit
Raga Madhmad Sarang
Raga Madhuvanti
Raga Malgunji
Raga Malkauns
Raga Manjhkhamaj
Raga Marwa
Raga Maru Bihag
Raga Megh
Raga Megh Malhar
Raga Miyan Ki Malhar
Raga Pahadi
Raga Patdeep
Raga Pilu
Raga Puriya
Raga Puriya Dhanashree
Raga Rageshree
Raga Shankara
Raga Shivranjani
Raga Shree
Raga Shuddha Kalyan
Raga Shuddha Sarang
Raga Sindh Bhairavi
Raga Sohni
Raga Surdasi Malhar
Raga Todi
Raga Vrindavani Sarang
Raga Yaman
Raga
Re:raga Dec 04, 2002 03:44 p.m.


Dear Amitava,
Thanks to you for your benefical explanation. My desire was to know if there might be any sources I perhaps missed. For lovers of Mira Bai I recommend Lata Mangeshkars �Mira Bhajans�, it is perhaps 40 years old but the most perfect rendering ever, here all styles vanish into ecstasy. Even south indian style of Mira Bhajan by M.S. Subbulakshmi, very great though, cannot equal Lata. I had visited once most of the places Mira Bai is said to have been, it is difficult to restore anything, still I hold it unsafe to judge from her surroundings. Perhaps it will remain a mystery? At the present day I still have read of yogis who disappeared at one time or another, so that Mira Bai got absorbed into her deity does not really bother one who still can believe in miracles, as many people in the East and West do. It would perhaps be of interest to know if Balasaraswati did any Mira Bai or Raga singing/dance on video tape? They sell one tape of her for 30 +, her disciple is said to teach in Oregon.
How should modern indian find the source of NS if not through tradition? It is often said that Urvashi performed dancedrama before Indra. Some may say this is only myth. I still have a good book that explains Urv-ashi was the wife of King Iksh-vaku, also called Indra, who lived acc. to some indian chronolgy 3102 B.C. at Kuru Land, which was central Asia Minor perhaps visit www.geocities.com/sa_ga_g for details. There I find so many traces of music as described by Bharata, that I am surprised how much of that music was preserved until today, What it needs is reconstruction according to what Bharata really left. From archaeology one can find that this music was there with Urv-ashi, so both music and dance drama might be that old and were preserved by Bharata.
Regards
Raga
Amitava
Re:raga Dec 05, 2002 03:21 p.m.


Phew. I am glad we did not get into a war/battle. I completely agree with you that Lata's bhajans are superb. The music was composed by her brother Hridaynath Mangeshkar. Very classical approach - without sounding so. They are available on CD now.

Ravi Shankar, too composed for Mira,the movie, and that is a nice CD (sung by Vani Jayram) as well, but it did not touch me as much as the Mangeshkar music.

Anup Jalota has some nice Mira songs. Music director Parthasarathy also has a CD recorded by Susheela (label Oriental Records in the U.S).

The interesting lesson is this is that the Mira's poetry take precedence, and is more stable. Music changes faster.

Mira's presence (in story telling, religion, poetry) does not seem to have been known or popular in the South. Note that the language differences probably contributed - besides the regionalization. However in the last century and a half, Mira's influence has reached the south.

Jayadev's Geeta-Govinda seems to have had a much stronger stamp on the classical (and popular) performing arts. This influence is extremely strong in the abhinay pieces in Odissi, Bharat Natyam, Mohini Attam, and Kathak. Manipuri dance's core also revolves on the GG. However, the focus of GG is Radha (not Mira) and Krishna. Of course, in recent times all classical dancers have choreographed Mira's poetry/life. But the GG is more popular.

So Balasarwati may have performed something on Mira, but she definitely has performed pieces of GG. So the probability is low that a Mira presentation was recorded. Do you happened to know the contact info of the student in Oregon. I will be driving from the Bay area to Portland in Dec, and would be happy to follow up.

Pandit Brju Maharaj also sings and dances (in a form called Bhav batana - emotion/expression showing). But it is performed sitting down - and uses the upper part of the body and face. Courtesans also perform thumris that way (many of which revolve around the erotic Krishna themes)

On the final point. I agree Music and story-telling has been in existence for very long time - in all cultures.

Amitava

Raga
Re:raga Dec 06, 2002 06:50 a.m.


Hi Amitava and all,

Why battle? One source can divert into extreme manifestations even the source itself becomes hidden. But without cause we cannot understand effects.
Check
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20021204/od_nm/weather_australia_raindance_dc_1
These women want to dance in a tradition that in India was originally for Indra, which perhaps was the same source as that of the dance of the gopikas? Some archaeologists claim that ancient tribes came from Asia, India to the Americas, they also performed rain dance. And their cultures merged with the european and african, perhaps check http://www.fashiontv.com/FashionTV.htm click Rio Carnival 2002. Surely the largest perpetual dance spectacular on earth and they keep every day preparing for the next one at Carnival in Brazil.

For video and films on Bala you may check link on http://www.centerforworldmusic.org/instr.html., it is rare and I hope they make a DVD one day and I get one befor they are obselete? I read that Kay Poursine, a female deciples who learned from Bala is going to teach Sadir in Oregon kpoursine@wesleyan.edu , I know nothing about charges, so do not blame me. Honestly, one day I was writing to late Alain Danielou, then director of the Institue for int. music that one should record the remains of GG as long as possible. He agreed, then he passed away. Mira Nair of MiraBai Films who made the film �Kama Sutra� should be entitled for such a project. I saw her �Monsoon Wedding�, they write it was the financially most sucessful indian film sofar, better than �Gandhi�. If Mira did GG, it would be great. I had read that Jaydev was composing the poems and singing them in ragas in the sringar rasa and his wife was dancing to it, what style? What a film this could be?
I will check the other artists you mentioned. Hope to get that CD of Latas Mira Bhajans one day myself, still M.S.Subbulakshmi should not be forgotten either, she is very subtle and great, too. Maybe more later, have to do some study..

Regards

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